The question is what is the minimum requirement on the test to pass? If the senior person meets this requirement he passes the test and is awarded the lead spot. If he fails then and only then would the jr. persone get the lead spot.

Instead I would like to see the test as an indicator of areas that need training not disqualification.After training and a probationary period , if the person cannot perform the task he should be returned to a mechanic's position.

Your idea is a big improvement over the exsisting by senority alone deal.
Lets say a mechanic that has only worked in structures for the past 15 years bids for the line lead mechanic position and a mechanic with 14 years of only line mechanic experience bids the line lead mechanic position. What mechanic should get the position? What mechanic would do the greatest good for the group immediately? I would say, odds are the 14 year mechanic should get the lead position, but maybe not. That is why I say some sort of knowledge testing should be given with maybe a couple of prerequisites. Maybe one of the prerequisites should be a minimum of 2 years experience in the job he will be leading. Another prerequisite could be a minimum passing score for the position he will be leading. If both bidders meet the prerequisites then the most senior would prevail. Sounds fair enough to me. How about you?

None of these ideas for lead tests etc. will work. Once the test is passed and they are in that position, they do what they want anyway.They must be held accountable for their job performance every day/night. Mechanics are held accountable every day/night for what they do and how they do it. The leads, not so much.

Leads are not held to any standard in my neck of the woods.

Leads at CAL are selected based on seniority only...

Talk about a DISASTER.

We have leads working the 'line' with 0 line experience, as in they were changing seat cushions for the past 10 years.

In a nutshell, if this agreement passes, chop ONE up for the Teamsters. Teamsters WIN.

I think you meant "chalk one up for the teamsters" But I will say your "chop" one up for the teamsters is a more realistic discription. The teamsters actually completely chopped this entire integration to shreads. They have lost a large amount of money from their members by trying to play the "we know best for the members" Not to mention they lost "ALL" retro for the AT mechs. You also say, "if this agreement passes"
You guys better hope and pray this agreement passes; if not then it will be years before you guys see any money from the AMFA/SWA contract. Not only that, but if we end up going to the big "A" then we keep our LOA, AND we will more likely still get the 4 years seniority boost to boot, if not more years. Yea you keep praising your teamsters, they are the best.

GT, why are you allowing someone to bash the union seniority system yet deleting my response?

VOTE NO! LOA 8

You got it. Good as done.

The YES voters in Dallas are living in a bubble. All I have ever heard is a NO vote. A 4 year bump is no way worth giving up the LOA. Arbitration - who cares. Contracts stay seperate, 717's are going and the remaining 52 -700's are being converted. How much clearer can it get?
The few pushing for a yes vote on the airline forum are either company scrooges or management types posing as mechanics. Don't fall for it.
Just look at the 4 year bump senority list being past around. The majority of SWA mechanics will lose senority. This would equate to a sweeping victory for the Teamsters. Don't be a sucker! Vote NO

A 4 year bump means the majority of SWA mechanics will give up senority. I would say that is a Teamster victory. The Teamsters played their cards perfectly. Big raises, better benefits, and picked off a bunch of senority at the same time. You'll be one of the first to vote this in too. On top of all this, this was done knowing ALL of AT work is leaving. It's really a sweeping Teamster victory. Seriously, think about it.

People tend not to listen to postings out here when they come out screaming and demanding more and more. What I find interesting is you are the only one out here screaming for everyone to vote no. You always post anonymous so it's hard to follow at times and your the only one out here screaming no vote. You are also posting on the airline forum and once again you are the only one. I would bet that if you are hearing all no votes and no yes voters where you are at, there would be alot more people on these forums posting as such.

Sorry you are wrong. I never posted on the airline forum in my life. And i'm not the only one posting here. You sure are keeping tabs of everything. Must be Company Management type.
I've read the garbage you half dozen or so are spewing on the airline forum but never posted. Anyway, you know and I know the AT mechanics are going to overwhelmingly vote this in. Why do think that is?
Let me be the first to thank you on behalf of the Teamsters, the Teamster Airline Division, the AT nego committee, and the AT mechanics, for screwing over over half of your fellow SWA mechanics.

Then I guess you have nothing to worry about.
This deal won't pass because surely no one will vote to screw themselves over right ?

Get over it, the deal is fair to both sides.

Probably the same reason GT never posted some of my responses. I was out of line.

And people wonder why our craft is so weak. Just read the comments. We're so busy attacking each other the company mean while is pick pocketing us. We all ignore the important issues until they finally come for you, then you react. To bad so sad.

Actually, you have posted on the airline forum.
And you are the only one on this forum to post that the 4 yrs boost is not enough. Do you see anyone else chiming in? Nope.
Why do I think the AT guys will overwhelmingly vote this in? Simple, they want the money, they want the pay and bennies and QOL that comes with being a SWA employee, period, end of story. The IBT/teamsters Attorneys more than admitted this at the nego table.
By all means, do not thank me for what the teamsters are bringing onto the AT mechs with this integration agreement. You, in fact, need to thank (if you wish) your wonderfull teamsters for the delays, retro pay, and time frame for getting on the SWA/AMFA contractual pay rates.
Just the mere fact that you have noticed that I am following all this to a "T" is enough to tell me I am exact right on what I posted before. Like I said before, call me whatever you want to. I care about my company being successfull, I care about my union being successfull. I am not management, I am actually a mechanic.
Dude get over yourself and the teamsters. The teamsters SUCK! They always will SUCK. They hide money, and information from their members, and in fact, do behind closed door deals. If you want to keep posting on here how great the teamsters are and how well they represented the AT guys, then be my guest. We (all union members) know what is really behind the teamsters agenda.
Now that I have re-read all your post I am a firm believer you are a teamster member out here trying to fix what they have completely screwed up while representing the AT mechs. Good luck brother, you are going to need it...

If you care about the union being successful( the union is the members) then how could you vote to screw OVER half of your fellow union brothers out of senority? You do not make any sense.
The Teamsters have done a superb job snowballing the AMFA nego. team into this agreement.
A complete windfall for the AT mechanics and nothing but a loss of senority for the majority of the SWA mechanics.
It's going to take some good snakeoil salesmanship to get this to pass. We shall see.
VOTE NO send it to arbitration

Not an outsider and never posted on the airline forum. Over half of the SWA mechanics will lose senority with a 4 year bump and that is not a misconception. I promote integration between AT and SWA but not with the present agreement. 4 years is a joke. This agreement will not pass. The majority is not that stupid.
Again, on behalf of the Teamster organization we thank you for trying to screw over half of your fellow SWA mechanics.

An exposive deal for the Teamsters and a sanchez for the majority of the SWA mechanics.

Now I dare your to explain to the SWA AMFA membership the fairness you speak. I will warn you though I will point out your shortcomings on every count.

It is fair to both sides because both sides don't like it.

You can't please everybody on one side and give everyone on the other side the shaft.

That is how any arbitrator will rule. It is their whole purpose to make it fair to both sides.

There will be a 3 arbitrator panel and they all have to believe the deal is fair to both sides.

You think you can get 3 arbitrators to agree to give us more than 4 years when no other SWA group got more than 4 years?

No chance in hell.

You better wake up before you really get screwed over.

just so you know, you only need 2 of the 3 to agree, not all 3.

Thank you for the clarification that it only takes a majority of the panel to decide.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?do=main.textpost&id=17b60a93-96e b-4ed5-acd2-2197dd05af2c

I guess it's not an important topic for the ibt.

Thanks AMFA for making me aware of this article.

Will be out of state for a few days. No updates until Tuesday. I am leaving the computer at home. Let's take a break.

Enjoy your time off GT...

How did this 4 year bump come to be? Was the mechanics at SWA surveyed? How come it wasn't 2 years or 6 years or 8 years? What formula was used to get to this number? Thanks

Here is an interesting fact. An Airtran GSE mechanic makes $20.25 an hour after 9 years of service. A SWA GSE mechanic makes $38.59 an hour after 5 years of service. These are just base pay rates.
Vote NO- 4 years is not near enough

Here is another little tidbit. An Airtran GSE Helper Mechanic makes after 5 years $12.67 an hour. Because SWA does not have GSE helper mechanics, those AT GSE helper mechanics will now top out at $38.59 an hour base pay.
Vote NO- 4 years is not enough

If a SWA mechanic has 2 years doh/doc and gets a 4 year boost, does that mean they get top out pay?

How dare you imply a SWA mechanic gets anything out of this deal. But then again, he does get something....THE SHAFT!

Thank you sir. I have returned. My son just graduated with a Masters in Business Fraud. He wrote his paper on Labor Unions. Rather interesting. When it's published I will provide a link for those who may be interested. I'm a very proud dad.

Chip off the old block. Congradulations to you and your son. Outstanding accomplishment!!!

Thanks for the kind words.

I barely know how to respond to your post. The SWA Mechanic AMFA membership will have taken a shanking by the Teamster sharks if by chance this agreement passes. It's mindboggling how weak-kneed some of you are.

You dont know how to respond because you have no clue to how the negotiations with the IBT went.

The IBT got NOTHING that they asked for.

N-O-T-H-I-N-G!

The pay increases the Airtran mechanics will receive is only because of the pay rates in our AMFA contract.

The teamster minnows floated out of the negotiations belly up with nothing they wanted at all.

Oh yeah, they got us to agree for both sides to vote at the same time. WOW, a big win for your so called sharks.

There is only about 30-35 GSE mech. And they had a separate CBA from the A/C maint. Guys. The only reason there in all this is because you guys have them in your CBA.

You guys and gals may want to get involved in this.
http://www.nmb.gov/representation/proposed-rep-rulemaking_5-1 5-12.html

We not only have them(GSE) in our CBA, we have plant mx, GSE, mx control, and everybody inbetween that holds accrued senority in management positions. It's a free for all our CBA has turned into. Now we are voting on LOA 8 to allow AT TSM on our contract.
AMFA is not a craft union. It's AMT's and everybody else.

Migrate on over to the Airline Forums. You will find plenty of people to argue with.

I would love to read it. I tip my hat twice to your son for an oustanding job "well done". Nothing better to read than a proud father of his son. Bring it on. Tell your son to keep up the good and hard work, it will all pay off in the long run... GT, I can see you now pumping your chest out for the boy. Way to go you two!!

No responses because nobody knows. I suspect this 4 year deal came from a few Dallas mechanics that would benefit with the 4 year bump by placing them ahead of the top AT mechanic. SELLOUTS! AMFA fell for it after the previous deal went bust.
VOTE NO send it to arbitration.

Hogwash.
There are only 2 members on the committee from Dallas. The 4 year idea did not start from them and they are out numbered on the committee.

Thank you.

You mean the six or so yes voting sellouts over there? Maybe I should. My moniker will be 'therealswamt'.

Nobody is answering you b/c we have been thru this several times already. We all know where the 4 years came from. And no it was not from a couple of Dal mechs. It came from the nego cmte after getting alot of input from the membership. Now if you want to goto one of your reps and ask them why 4 years, knock yourself out. I think alot of s are tired of explaining it all. You need to contact a cmte member and ask all the questions you want.
I an not going to critisize you for your "NO" vote, I will not ask you to vote "YES". I just want every one to vote how it affects them personally--that's all. Still voting "YES"!!

May 16 (Bloomberg) -- Southwest Airlines Co. will defer
deliveries of 30 Boeing Co. 737 jets by about four years to
cut capital spending in 2013 and 2014.
The deferrals will save more than $1 billion in capital
expenditures, Chief Executive Officer Gary Kelly said today at
the Dallas-based carrier’s annual meeting. All the planes are
Boeing 737-800 models, Southwest said.

The 4 years came from a beaten AMFA nego team. The Teamsters shang-hai'd AMFA into believing they got a deal. Just look at the 4 year bump senority list and you should see the majority of SWA mechanics will take a senority loss. The majority should kill this deal.
Vote NO send it to arbitration

What's this? A chink in Southwest's armor? This is how it starts, delayed deliveries turn into cancelled deliveries with contract penalties paid. Then starts the cuts, jobs and other capital spending as the failed corporate heads can't think of anyone else to rob, so they turn on their own employees as every dying corporation eventually does.

Face it folks, Southwest as robber barron is a mature pyramid scheme under intense pressure from all the competition that they drove into bankruptcy. Now, Southwest is the high cost legacy carrier and everybody else is nipping at THEIR heals. A death of a thousand cuts....and well earned.

SWA say Goodbye to the 717s. Ironic this will come out before the MX vote. Should get interesting.

Just another BIG reason to vote No to this SLI agreement. 717's leaving and the -700's are being converted. It doesn't take a brain the size of a grape seed to figure out the rest of the story.

What?......say goodby to the 717s ? How'd you get that out of the article? They deferred the 737s because they have aquired the 717s from AT. In other words, they are going operate the 717s longer.....4 years longer. If anything I'd say that they might shut down some unprofitable AT routes and re-route the 717s onto Southwest routes, replacing Southwest people and equipment with AT people and equipment.

I know exactely how the negotiations went. They went exactely as the Teamsters planned it. If passed, they will receive a windfall and pick off senority from the majority of the AMFA SWA mechanics. In your mind the Teamsters got nothing. The Teamsters got everything they wanted and more. Your Teamster brothers thank all the YES voters for giving away the farm and would LUV to do more business with ya all.

The IBT wanted DOH.
The only way they can get that now is if this deal is voted down and we let a panel of arbtrators tell us what they think is fair.

The only people that will be duped by the IBT then will be those that voted against a perfectly fair deal.

Oh great Kreskin pray tell how you extrapolated that information foresight from such a minimal news blurb.

My feelings on that announcement is that whatever deal WN was working for the 717's fell through. As a result they have no prospective taker for the 717's and therefore are calculating they will have to see them through to the end of their leases.

I don't think the deal fell through. I think you will see an annoucement soon. GK has said, even if he has to park them and pay for them, then that will happen. SWA will scratch a 142 aircraft off the books this year. 88 717's, 30 800's, and 24 3/5's. SWA has to slow it down some until they digest AirTran, labor contracts due, and of course the dreaded fuel cost. Just good management looking out for the airlines health short term and long term.

At least I can admit I work for Airtran.I do not know how you can say SWA mechanics are loosing senority. EVERY AIRTRAN MECHANIC IS LOOSING FOUR YEARS TO GET THIS DEAL DONE,BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT AMFA TOLD US WAS THE MINIMUM THEIR MEMBERS WOULD TAKE. I AM VOTING YES TO GET THIS DONE AND LOSE FOUR YEARS TO MAKE THIS A BETTER AIRLINE. ALSO I AM SO GLAD TO SEE THAT GARY KELLY IS PUTTING SWA MECHANICS ON THE BOARD OF DIRRECTORS TO MAKE FLEET DECISSIONS AND LABOR RELATIONS ,YOU MUST HAVE AN MBA FROM HARVARD UNIVERSITY!!!!

You are voting yes because you are getting a smoking deal that would never have happenned were it not for the great negotiation skills and excellent lawyers your beloved Teamsters provide its membership.
Because of the Teamster power, over half of the SWA mechanics will cough up senority on your behalf. The AMFA at SWA is frightened to death of what will happen at arbitration with Teamster power behind you.
Matter of fact, the SWA mechanics(old friends) are still working off the same contract skillfully negotiated by the Teamsters years ago.
Now enjoy your new found fortunes skillfully handed to you on a silver platter by your Teamsters.

This guy is a character. Really sounds like he knows what he is talking about heh? LOL. Get over yourself dude, so far it looks like this will pass BOTH sides. Nice try, I will give you credit for trying. BTW: Please keep posting, if anything, it is entertaining...

I know what I'm talking about so keep entertaining yourself. You must admit the Teamsters did a outstanding job for its members. The majority of the SWA AMFA mechanics will bow to the senority victory the Teamsters negotiated.
I believe this agreement will pass by a big margin on the AT Teamster side. 50/50 on the SWA side.

You are not getting your information from the negotiating committee or anyone in the room.

They were there, you were not.
They have said to me that your opinions are not based on reality.

The teamsters got NOTHING that they asked for in the second round of negotiations. They wanted DOH and retro to just to start.
The deal we are voting on is what AMFA went in with.

Boy are you being duped. Of course the negotiating committee is going to try to justify and sell this sammy to the membership. Why do you think the AT mechs are going to overwhelmingly vote this in? Because they just got the deal of the century and at the same time folks like you think you spanked them.
Perfectly negotiated by the Teamsters.
If Herb thought like you SWA would never have got off the ground.
Vote No send it to arbitration. Stand at attention, chin up and stop wobbling your knees.

I now doubt that you are even a SWA mechanic.
You clearly have no idea how this negotiation process went.
You want to rewrite the way it went to try and paint the IBT in some other light than the reality of how poorly they performed at the table.

Airtran mechanics will receive AMFA wages and benefits because we have them and every AMFA mechanic on our seniority list at the time the buyout closed, will gain 4 years seniority.

The IBT does not like this deal but caved again and again in the last weeks of negotiations because their members want that money.

Some SWA mechanics want more than 4 years. Some want a staple.
Fine they can vote how they want. I believe like the committee does that 4 years is fair.

But there is no way you will twist this deal into any kind of win for the IBT. Their lawyer was a joke an was beat like a rented mule.
Just because you say a 4 year bump for SWA is a deal of the century for the IBT, doesn't make it so.

He's just a trying to get everyone to vote no. He's way down on the list and this affects him alot. Notice he is the only one out here claiming the teamsters planned this whole nego fiascal. You are correct about their attorney, did you see his face when Mr. Ryan told him that retro was gone, bye-bye, out the window. He reminded me of that last kid picked in grade school for gym teams. You know, the one that never performs.

I am a swa mechanic and what I do not understand all the at mechanics are voting yes. And all the swa mechanics are split 50/50, So which side got the better deal.

So how do know how anyone will vote?

How about you give us tomorrows lottery numbers while you are at it.

If the Teamster attorney was so bad, then why are we voting on just a 4 year bump? Which really means the majority of SWA mechanics are going to be eating senority CROW. You are trying to make this deal sound like stepping in a pile with bare feet is a good thing. That last kid picked just took you to the cleaners.

We are voting on a 4 year bump because at the roadshows for the company deal, the committee got plenty of feedback that most SWA mechanics wanted a straight seniority increase across the board at all stations.

Your elected negotiating committee members then went back to their home bases and consulted many of their own fellow mechanics there.

The committee then had conference calls together to come up with a reasonable number of years that could pass BOTH sides. If the number was too high then it would not pass an Airtran vote and would therefore be a wasted chance to get a deal out of an unknown arbitration panels hands.
They and they alone then decided on a 4 year increase.
When they met the Airtran committee for the first time after the first no vote, this 4 year increase was presented by AMFA to the IBT.

During the weeks that followed when both sides met, your elected AMFA committee held firm.
While the IBT lawyer huffed and puffed and made a complete fool of himself in front of both committees and SWA management, your elected AMFA representatives held firm and solid. They took all the nonsense the IBT joker had and did not yield an inch.

We are now voting on that same deal that AMFA brought in.

If you think the IBT controlled this second round of negotiations then you are mistaken. They were steamrolled by the elected AMFA committee.

Now the whole discussion of weather 4 years is enough for you is a completely different thing.

Maybe you were not consulted on your opinion.
Maybe you were in the minority opinion.
Maybe they knew a staple could never pass an AT vote.
Maybe you should have ran for the negotiating committee or voted in someone who agrees with you.

Now all SWA mechanics stand to receive a seniority increase at all stations.
A 1 year mechanic gets a 400% bump.
A 2 year mechanic gets a 200% bump.
A 4 year mechanic gets a 100% bump.
An 8 year mechanic gets a 50% bump.

Try getting a panel of arbitrators to buy into this idea.

Finally!!! A fellow SWA mechanic starting to think and question this deal. SWA mechanics are holding four aces and AMFA is trying to talk you into voting yes and fold your hand. Pretty scary..

That's fine, think what you want. Go ahead and vote it down. Then we'll go to arbitration. That's been explained 9 ways from Sunday. If that happens and the big A panel gives the AT guys a better deal as in fewer years.. what then? Are you going to live with that decision or are you going to whine and cry to till the cows come home?

Very fishy that as soon as the SWA guys mention that you are the only one out here posting that the teamsters won a win-fall for the AT guys, all of a sudden there are now supposively SWA mechs now questioning the way you predict that the vote will go. We can very easilly see what you are doing. It's so easy for anyone to post annonymously on this site.
No-one really knows how this vote will go. I will say that not all the AT guys will vote yes. I know of many that will be voting no. It won't be the huge yes vote as you claim. I do think it will pass on the AT side as they have way too much to lose if they do not. I will also say that I think it will pass on the SWA side as well. However it will be close. If either side votes this down this time, it will be years before the AT mechs are able to get on our contract for all the wages and bennies, YEARS. So if you want to postpone this integration with a no vote, then be our guest. The out come could very well be that AT mechs get DOH, who cares, b/c SWA mechs will retain the March 29 LOA that in fact says all non-SWA mechs will have to go before any SWA mechs are let go. This means your veteran 18 year man would have to go before the SWA mech that was just hired May 2, 2011.
The way you are posting is that we should have went for alot more, when in fact AMFA moved to the 4 years in order to get this done, AND AMFA, SWA management, and even third party arbitrators think that 4 years is a fair trade off. Keep posting, you might end up changing all our minds to vote no. Go thru arbitration, get the 4 years enhancement, and still keep our LOA. Now with this outcome, how do you look now?? What you fail to see is time is on our side, we can wait for ever not to come to terms, b/c we will lose nothing, nothing at all. So go ahead and continue to promote the no vote and screw down all you fellow AT mechs from getting our pay scale for years, and years to come. And, within that time frame you will see all the AT colors become SWA's colors and (since you all voted it down) no AT mechs can perform any maint. on our birds. For your own sake, no matter what your seniority is, you all better hope and pray this gets voted in this time. Let's not forget, we still will have to get a SCBA in order for this all to work out. If I were you, I wouldn't want to be one of the no voters that help put the final nail in it...

You are incorrect saying AMFA is pushing this. The official report was unfortunately incorrect reporting that the Committee endorsed the settlement. Hopefully at your roadshow meeting you were provided that information. No Union Representative would throw any Members under the bus. Negotiations can only go so far and then you have to let the Membership have their say. Just because it comes out for a Vote doesn't mean it is endoresed unless those words come out of a committe person's mouth. That Rep should then be promptly voted out of office...in my opinion.

That is not true.
At our road show we were told that the committee ALL recommend a yes vote on ALL parts of the TA.

Everyone who attended a roadshow knows you are spreading BS.

Are you only trying to convince people who didn't make it to a road show?

And yes, we heard the words coming out of their mouths. You obviously did not.

The dispatchers got a 4 year bump in arbitration and I believe we have an even stronger case. This is where you are missing the boat completely. The amount of year bump does not matter. For instance, say we negotiated a 2 year bump and over half of the SWA mechanics were not affected then that would be fair. Even with a 4 year bump, the majority of SWA mechanics will have to cough up senority.. NOT FAIR. It's not the years of bump that matters, it is how the majority will place on a combined senority list-understand?

You can percentage anything anyway you want. AMFA couldn't even save 50% of the SWA members from a senority loss. A Teamster victory.

AT will overwhelminly vote this in because they got a sweetheart deal in the face of knowing they are losing all their work.
That's like me selling you a business and you buying it knowing you will be out of business in a couple years.

If AMFA would have held firm on 8 years, AT would have voted this in no matter what they tell you. They have no choice. Arbitration, contracts stay seperate, they lose all their work, furloughed, 2 year recall rights with no work to return. Understand? They had no choice!

So I hope you now understand that the Teamsters did an outstanding job for its membership. AMFA was dealt all 4 aces and folded. And now the majority of SWA mechanics are faced with losing senority forever.

Now understand this, with a 4year bump I will place ahead of the highest AT mechanic which ironically is an AT GSE mechanic with 1993 senortiy that will double his pay. Nonetheless, this is a horible deal for the SWA mechanics and I will continue campaigning for a NO vote. We can do much better.

Would you please quit wobbling your knees!